AWD Braking... Right?

"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion) 01/19/2016 at 10:37 • Filed to: AWD, WTF, commericals

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I saw an infuriating commercial this morning for the AWD Toyota Sienna, in a straight line braking competition (on ice) vs. a Jeep (grand cherokee I think). Of course, the Toyota stopped quicker.

Now, I realize the facts are the facts. The Toyota stopped faster in these conditions. Lower CG? Better tires? Better ABS system? I don’t know. But the commercial was implying that the AWD system was good for snowy conditions by showing a braking test: Look, see how well it STOPS? Buy an AWD Sienna NOW.

And... there you have it. They didn’t explicitly SAY that AWD means better stopping, but this type of ad seriously helps perpetuate that false idea.

I couldn’t find the ad on youtube (no surprise, it’s not very interesting) but here’s the test in question, at about 2:15.

bob and john > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 10:42

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well, if you slam it in reverse and spin the tires backwards, yess its going to stop fast then a 2WD version :D

McMike > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 10:42

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Engine braking with AWD is a little smoother and stable, but actual braking distances?

What a crock of shit. Sometimes I really hate marketing.

I guess I should keep my eye out for AWD Siennas in the ditch this winter now.

functionoverfashion > bob and john 01/19/2016 at 10:43

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haha, I guess if you disabled the ABS you could do that, on a sheet of ice like the test. Could make for some interesting spin moves, too!

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 10:44

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ABS doesn’t stop you faster. All it does is let you keep steering.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > McMike 01/19/2016 at 10:46

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We should give ditches a Sienna, ditches are going to love Sienna’s.

functionoverfashion > McMike 01/19/2016 at 10:46

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Also, aren’t the other minivans they test against FWD? So, 0-50 acceleration is not exactly a fair comparison, you might say. And why didn’t they compare braking distance to the other minivans? “Look, this apple is better at [X] than an orange, and better at [Y] than a banana! Woo hoo!”

Ash78, voting early and often > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 01/19/2016 at 10:47

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Yup...early versions actually stopped slower than an experienced driver executing threshold braking, but for the average Joe “MASH THE PEDAL AND PRAY” ABS is the better option.

iSureWilll > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 01/19/2016 at 10:47

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In the instance that you’re hard on the brakes, the AWD will have no impact on your steering ability. This will all come down to tires.

functionoverfashion > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 01/19/2016 at 10:48

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Precisely. Which is why I think some ABS systems are better than others in minimizing the increase in stopping distance while allowing the driver to maintain steering.

McMike > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 10:48

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So, 0-50 acceleration is not exactly a fair comparison, you might say

Goddamn right. 1/4 mile or STFU.

Mattbob > bob and john 01/19/2016 at 10:49

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spinning the tires backwards would stop slower than ABS. ABS maximizes the amount of static friction. If you spin the wheels, you are relying entirely on kinetic friction.

functionoverfashion > Ash78, voting early and often 01/19/2016 at 10:50

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You’re right, and in certain conditions like loose gravel, ABS will just increase stopping distance, period. As you said, it’s been determined to be the lesser of two evils, for the average driver.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 01/19/2016 at 10:50

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Well, yes and no. If the ABS system is stopping you from ever breaking loose and thus allowing you to keep your static friction coefficient, it can over what would be a long slide in theory make you stop faster due to that. Depends on the setup, of course. Most wouldn’t, instead giving you brief knocks of static friction and free roll, which evens out around the same or even worse. The base principle, though: it can in theory stop you faster.

Wacko > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 10:53

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Toyota knows their clients, they can say anything they want, even if it makes no sense at all. this and grounded to the ground.

bob and john > Mattbob 01/19/2016 at 10:55

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Well, yes and no. If the ABS system is stopping you from ever breaking loose and thus allowing you to keep your static friction coefficient, it can over what would be a long slide in theory make you stop faster due to that. Depends on the setup, of course. Most wouldn’t, instead giving you brief knocks of static friction and free roll, which evens out around the same or even worse. The base principle, though: it can in theory stop you faster.

Taken from rambin rover above.

Wacko > McMike 01/19/2016 at 10:55

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It actually looks like they turned off the traction control on the dodge and honda, since the wheels where just spinning. and when they do it against the the jeep you can actually see the traction control is on the toyota.

Wacko > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 01/19/2016 at 10:57

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abs will stop you faster on ice, if you just press down on the brake.(ABS and non ABS)if you know what you are doing you can stop faster on ice without abs.

450X_FTW > McMike 01/19/2016 at 10:58

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When PR people start talking about how much synergy and precision engineering goes into the car, I want to smack the crap out of them

Party-vi > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 11:05

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The GC Limited and Sienna both share very similar 0-60 times. I’m wondering if the same tires were worn by all participants or if they went with OE choices.

Mattbob > bob and john 01/19/2016 at 11:08

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It’s not a free roll. the brake pressure doesn’t drop to zero. there is a lot better control over pressure than you might think. Its not perfect, but those valves actuate really fast. ABS gets you back to static friction, so you get the kinetic friction during those little slides, then the ABS reduces(not eliminates) pressure to get you back to static. Pressure is increased by ABS pump until the cycle repeats.

I work on brake systems testers, design and support.

TheHondaBro > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 11:12

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Could have been differences in F/R brake biases.

HammerheadFistpunch > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 11:22

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Standardized testing, yes...as in the tests are consistent...but Toyota designs the test. i.e. the braking test could be “stop as quickly as you can without engaging ABS intervention” (since I saw no indication of ABS engaging) in which case there are variables and advantages you can exploit. Its the same thing with the Tundra twerking test or anything with howie long or mike rowe...the testing can be accurate AND gamed.

All these comparisons are mostly garbage.

HammerheadFistpunch > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 11:31

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Interesting fact, when you lock the center diff in the cruiser (in 4hi or 4lo) it turns off the ABS because it assumes you will be driving on a surface that behaves as a particle (sand, gravel, etc). Toyota knows.

functionoverfashion > HammerheadFistpunch 01/19/2016 at 11:38

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That’s brilliant. Makes me want one even more.

Justin Hughes > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 11:38

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I learned this first hand at Team O’Neil. They’d watered down a nice muddy patch. First run through, the instructor had me threshold brake as usual. Second run, he had me lock ‘em up. The skidding tires dug through the slick wet layer to the dry dirt below and stopped the car faster than threshold braking did. That’s why the first Audis with ABS had a button to turn it off as desired.

functionoverfashion > Justin Hughes 01/19/2016 at 11:48

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Funny, I learned this first hand the first time I drove my mother’s new Subaru back in high school. I had never driven with ABS before and at the end of my road, I nearly slid out into the intersection as I hit the brakes as I would have in my Civic, and ABS engaged instead. It was a nice hard-packed snow surface and wow, what a difference.

I also went to Team O’Neil a few years ago, and that lesson on braking was a very nice real-world validation of what I intuitively felt. I can still picture the whiteboard drawing - which I have replicated since - illustrating the point.

wiffleballtony > functionoverfashion 01/19/2016 at 11:53

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Toyota, let’s stop going places.

wiffleballtony > HammerheadFistpunch 01/19/2016 at 11:54

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Are you besmerching the sacred name of Howie Long?

HammerheadFistpunch > wiffleballtony 01/19/2016 at 11:56

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